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For most of us, one sail a year is plenty. I normally buy one a year - in the first year it is my regatta sail (on average 40 races), in the second year it is my club racing sail (another 50 or so races), and in the third year it is my training sail. That seems like a pretty good return for $600 (Australian) to me - maybe $3 each time I go sailing? I chose the changeover point pretty carefully to coincide with the biggest regatta of the year, and have never in my life felt that someone else has beaten me in a race because their sail was better than mine.
While I think a more durable sail is the way to go, has anyone looked at the opposite model? Maybe trying to make sails last longer is the wrong way to go for sailors and the class and we should work on making them cheaper even though they won't last as long.
Could sails be made cheaper so that even though one might buy several a season they still come out ahead in the long run? I'm thinking something similar to a North 3DL where they're essentially cranked out on a machine in high volume might be a way to bring them down to a "magic" price point where buying several a year is practical for most sailors.
Let's say that sails could be cranked out cheaply enough that they could sell for say, $200 and still cover all the hands in the chain with a fair margin. Maybe your average club sailor doing a summer beercan series, a number of regional regattas and one or two big ones in a year would not find it unreasonable to buy a new one at the start of the season, another part way through the season for the regionals and one for the major regattas. Each hit of $200 is a relatively small percentage of the overall cost of competing, the sailor gets relatively more new sail sailing time during the year and the builders, dealers and class benefit by more volume. The guys who sail a lot more would buy proportionately more while the guys who sail less would of course buy less new but might benefit from more second-hand sails being available.
Mind you, a cynic might say that whatever the quality of the class sail we might still be having these discussions about the cost & longevity of the sails not being good enough as our expectations continue to change over time. . .
Disclaimer: I'm not a racer because there are virtually no races near me, and, to be honest, I could care less about racing so my thoughts are my own based soley on what I believe to be common sense
Having said that, isn't the whole sail issue much easier to resolve?
The fact of the matter is that OEM Laser sails are over-priced. A good friend of my family was an exceptional boat builder (retired). He designed and built several very successful 35-40' sailboats, several of which won the Victoria to Maui races. My point is, when it comes to sailboats/sailing, the man is veteran who knows what he's talking about (more so then I!)
He bought a lot of sails, big ones. He couldn't believe that a little dinky Laser sail was a whopping $600 Why? Because it's way overpriced compared to what he paid for larger and heavier sails.
Some might disagree with that logic. OK, how come an Intensity sail is so cheap then? It's probably even a better sail. But wait, it's not legal ! That's the issue.
Am I the only one that understands that OEM products cost way more money? If the rules legislate an OEM sail then, from my view, it's in the best interests of the OEM when the sail is $600 and a virtually identical Intensity sail is sub $200
My point being that the $400 difference is going somewhere....
Being forced to go OEM is nothing but a big advantage to... the OEM. That advantage comes at the cost of the consumer. Any time you stifle competition you get what? Price fixing and/or gouging.
Competition however tends to breed two things, one, better quality and two, a lower price.
Throughout history we see this. VCR's were originally more then $1,000 Competition, coupled with mass production, reduced them to free with any purchase of $50 or more Historically it's like that with everything.
Why not make the solution as simple as this. Allow a person to use either an OEM laser sail or an Internsity sail ? Competition like that would cause the OEM price to drop like a rock or they would pack up and go home because their production methods are less effective. That's the American way. You reward the innovator and you punish the glutton, and as such, the consumer wins and the innovator sells more product making more money based on what? Volume.
In any business, when you mass produce something the price typically drops because the manufacturer buys the components needed in higher quantities (he pays less) and then automates, as much as possible, the manufacturing process. This cost savings ultimately leads directly to a lower price for OEM and they usually pass some of that off to the end user - unless you've managed to legislate a monopoly. It's my understanding that more then 200,000 Lasers have been built. That's 200,000 sails. Yet, for more then a decade the price has been fixed at more then $500
Why aren't we, as consumers, rewarding Intensity for making, if anything, a better sail for less then $200 and make it the standard and slowly phase out OEM sails.
If the point of the whole thing is standardization and eliminating anti-competitive variations during manufacturing, then standardize on a cheaper model that still maintains the same quality. If you're worried that this would lead to another monopoly, then award several different companies the contract or enforce price management to ensure, once awarded the contract, the company didn't raise the price from sub $200 to $600
Another alternative is to take a que from Stock Car racing where they measure the cars before each race to ensure that someone didn't make one to a slightly smaler scale (this actually happened). They created a very simple measuring jig for this. It takes 5 seconds to put it on the car to ensure that it's 'within spec'.
It would not be a problem to ensure that every major event were outfitted with a class legal jig to quickly measure the entrants sail size before each race. This is not rocket science folks!
As far as I can see, were it not for the class rules, a person could probably sue using Sherman anti-trust laws as their basis. You could probably make a price fixing/gouging case. Someone is getting fat off an enforced $600 sail when you can buy the same (or better) for sub $200. And remember, it's the consumer that's paying that $400 surcharge (that means you!)
In any business, contracts are typically awarded by two things, price and quality. Both have to be present. Yet in the Laser world this is not the case. The Laser world exists in a world where the traditional capitalist system does not apply. It's Bizzare-O world where everything is backwards.
For as long as I can remember an OEM Laser sail was always at least $500 - that's going back more then a decade. Because I don't race it's the reason I never bought a new sail. Instead, I made do with my 27 year old sail (I'm not kidding here - my Mom used to sew it back together!).
Intensity was the biggest blessing I've ever seen in my little Laser world. I had never seen a brand new sail before I bought theirs. I refused to be gouged. Not only did I get a brand new sub $200 sail but it came with battens, two cases, a fancy clew tie down and the highest quality sailing calendar I'd ever seen. It even came with tell-tales and numbers!!
That's an incredible value. You guys would know better then I if the Intenstity sail has the same merit with respect to sailability etc. It's my understanding that it's designed to be more durable then the OEM.
My question is this, why aren't we rewarding them for doing an incredible job and, if anything, going more then the extra mile? I doubt anyone would balk if the legislative body woke up one morning and said, "We're going with them". If the worst thing that happened was that everyone had to part with less then $200 to fix this issue once and for all - and they got a brand new sail in the process - then so be it. Why make it more complex then it has to be with entirely new sail designs etc?
After many years in the automotive business, the computer industry and in general business I thought I'd seen every possible type of gouging. The thing is though, in every case competition could come in - if they wanted to.
It's only in the Laser world where anti-competition practices have been able to be legislated. Normally the federal government steps in when that occurs. Now, I understand that legislation is required due to the one design principle but the fact is, Intensity seems to be making, if anything, a better sail for less then $200 and that tells me one thing - the emporer has no clothes!
It's been said way too many times why the laser sail costs the way it does. Look through more of these threads and you'll get your answer on that. Intensity sails are so cheap because sell direct rather than the supply chain. And remember, Intensity sails aren't Laser sails. They aren't innovating anything, they aren't following the rules that the Laser class sets for a sail.
There is enough testing on new sail designs going on that we should see something come of it in the future. The class knows the issues with the sail design and it's trying to be fixed but it takes time.
I disagree that competition will bring down the sail price, in fact it would hurt. You want an example of this look at the Optimist class. Look at how expensive their sails are ($550 at the max, for a sail that's even smaller than a Laser). All are class legal. Adding that kind of variety will bring sail prices up and turn the class into an arms race so people spend more and more money to buy what they think the best sails are. The price won't go down.
Adding measurements to the class takes time away from major regattas where we would normally just show up and race because we know everything on the boat is legal. Now with things replica sails and parts, that hurts the class because now people have to think twice about what's out there and then we waste time measuring when we should be racing.
What kind of timeframe are we talking about for any decision about a new sail or is this still a bit of a pipe dream?
Just thinking about when I will purchase a new sail....
I think AlanD would beg to differ on your comment about measuring. Just because the Laser is a One Design class with a tight ruleset does not mean that measuring is not required.
I will agree that it is not along the lines of other classes such as the Finn and Fireball where they can (and do) have a full measurement process before all major regattas. All boats are required to hold a valid measurement certificate and all sails must be signed as being measured by an authorised class measurer prior to the event.
The class has a difficult job with regards to the sail because it has not been touched or updated for so long. They have to get the blanace right between making progress and ensuring they do not obsolete every sail that is currently in circulation. As it is we are unlikely to see this prior to the end of the current olympic cycle unless they can persaude the ISAF to allow it.
From what I have seen things look promising although more updates are required from the technical comittee (IMO) because most of the stuff we find out is based on what people have seen/heard from the people in power.
Intensity sails are so cheap because sell direct rather than the supply chain. And remember, Intensity sails aren't Laser sails. They aren't innovating anything, they aren't following the rules that the Laser class sets for a sail.
I disagree that competition will bring down the sail price, in fact it would hurt. You want an example of this look at the Optimist class. Look at how expensive their sails are ($550 at the max, for a sail that's even smaller than a Laser). All are class legal. Adding that kind of variety will bring sail prices up and turn the class into an arms race so people spend more and more money to buy what they think the best sails are. The price won't go down.
Adding measurements to the class takes time away from major regattas where we would normally just show up and race because we know everything on the boat is legal. Now with things replica sails and parts, that hurts the class because now people have to think twice about what's out there and then we waste time measuring when we should be racing.
Hmmm.... as a businessmen I could drive a truck through that argument. The trend in business all over the world is going direct.
Everyone understands that the supply chain costs the consumer. Remember, that $400 fee is going somewhere....and it's the consumer that's paying for it. (That's us by the way and that means you dear reader). With respect to an Intensity sail not being a Laser sail - that's because it's been legislated so by a legislative body that's been endorsing a monopoly for decades. That point can't be made more clear then it already has.
And yet, the fact is, there is a sub-$200 sail on the market right now. Maybe it's just me but it seems like the price already did go down - and that's in a market that's legislated by government mandate to specifically thwart competition under the guise of keeping every boat the same.
That argument doesn't really hold water. For a couple of reasons. First, you don't have to implement measuring. You could just shift the sail endoresement from the current one, to, for example, the Intensity sail. Just like that. Everyone saves $400 and we reward the company that's innovating and everyone still has the same damn sail. This is not rocket science folks - it's a simple problem.
But that's the point right - the reason why a solution as simple as this is not being undertaken is because someone is protecting that $400 fee under the auspices of ensuring no-one is getting an unfair advantage.
In today's world of computer controlled manufacturing it's dead simple to stamp out 200,000 identical sails where there is, for all intents and purposes, no variance.
Supply chains are going the way of the wind (pardon the pun). The only time paying an extra $400 fee for going through a supply chain is when it adds value.
A Laser sail is a commodity item - there's no tech support required for it and it does not require the complex shipping or handling that typically necessitates a supply chain.
Who wants to endorse and pay for the supply chain with respect to the sail? That means that every time a sailor buys a new sail he's being forced to give an extra $400 as a donation to support the supply chain? In the business world that's called an anti-competitve practice - to say the least.
Look, the proof is in the pudding. If the legislating body woke up one morning and decided that everyone had to use an Intensity sail it would mean three things;
1) Everyone would be saving $400 every time they bought a sail
2) Everyone would have the same sail
3) There would be no need for measuring.
Problem solved.
Instead, the legilative body has chosen to force the sailors to part with $400 extra dollars every time they buy a new sail to support what? The supply chain. For a commodity item that does not require a supply chain in the first place.
Maybe it's just me but I'm not going to vote with my hard dollars to support a supply chain. Here's an idea, why don't we take that $400 padding fee (let's call it what it really is) and give it to up and coming young sailors as a donation to support the sport? That's at least something I'd be willing to pony up the 'padding fee' for.
Instead of rewarding a company like Intensity - we punish them. And for what? Because they chose to make life better for sailors by offering a sail for $400 less on a $600 dollar purchase!!
America, as a country, was built on just that kind of innovation and customer-driven approach. Normally that kind of behavior gets rewarded, but remember, the Laser world is actually Bizarre-O world where the standard laws of business don't apply.
You might want to read this and the rest of that thread: http://www.laserforum.org/showpost.php?p=132218&postcount=9. SFBAYLaser is the NA class president.
Why not go this route;
If the legislating body woke up one morning and decided that everyone had to use an Intensity sail it would mean three things;
1) Everyone would be saving $400 every time they bought a sail
2) Everyone would have the same sail
3) There would be no need for measuring.
Problem solved.
With respect to the poster from Australia wondering what the sail would cost him - it should be exactly the same - $189
Garbage. Obviously you haven't spent to much time buying items from overseas. You have international freight charges, taxes, duties, foreign currency exchange fees. Importing goods from overseas gets to be quite expensive. This adds about $US100 to the cost, so much for "it will cost the same". Read the threads of Americans complaining about the cost of the fibreglass boards which are so much more expensive than the Crompton boards, over here they are the same cost as the Crompton boards.
Doing away with the dealer network also means that there won't be new sails available at short notice. It takes 4-5 days by airfreight goods from the USA to Australia because they must pass through customs and quarantine inspections. So much for getting a replacement sail overnight because yours was lost in transit to the regatta.
---snip---
If the legislating body woke up one morning and decided that everyone had to use an Intensity sail it would mean three things;
1) Everyone would be saving $400 every time they bought a sail
2) Everyone would have the same sail
3) There would be no need for measuring.
Problem solved.
It is extremely rare that a boat will go through measurement fully and not need to alter some aspect to make the boat comply with the Class Rules.
P.S. Laser Performance and the class have no problem with the new blocks apparently, a part of the boat that is not equal to the part that most of us are using, definetely not "one design", one that is distributed through the same dealer "network" and that has not been approved by the tech commity.
Ever since I've begun racing Lasers I have tried to understand this, why a strict OD class must be founded on a monopoly. Instead of a reasonable explanation I have come across a startling amount of misinformation that is being continually spread throughout the laser world and the Laser World, especially regarding the sails (the local dealer network, supposed quality issues on replicas, poorer labor standards, need for measurement, trade mark laws etc.). What is especially irritating is that it is spread by ILCA-members and officials.
Why is that so?
Tracy IIRC, the class needed to vote to approve the Clew Sleeve, even though it ended up being a builder supplied, but didn't need to vote on the blocks.
I'm unclear on the distinction here, can you elaborate?
The single difference between the Harken blocks and Holt-Allen blocks ...
... As they are builder supplied, this was a change made to the Laser Construction Manual and not subject to a change in the Laser Class rules.
Garbage. Obviously you haven't spent to much time buying items from overseas. You have international freight charges, taxes, duties, foreign currency exchange fees. Importing goods from overseas gets to be quite expensive. This adds about $US100 to the cost, so much for "it will cost the same". Read the threads of Americans complaining about the cost of the fibreglass boards which are so much more expensive than the Crompton boards, over here they are the same cost as the Crompton boards.
Doing away with the dealer network also means that there won't be new sails available at short notice. It takes 4-5 days by airfreight goods from the USA to Australia because they must pass through customs and quarantine inspections. So much for getting a replacement sail overnight because yours was lost in transit to the regatta.
IMHO, we, the sailors/class members are much better off focusing on something a little more realistic which is pushing/demanding the class assoc/builders to give us a more durable sail. They can do that anytime they want (their past inaction speaks volumes though)
Wow! Have to say I'm pretty surprised by this. At the recent Worlds in Halifax, I heard of very few boats having an issue. The team of measurers was very efficient, and worked their way through the boats thoroughly. I only heard of a couple of cases of infractions.
For example, in the Laser World a while back Heini Wellmann wrote that we could not allow other than builder supplied equipment to regattas for reasons of trade mark rights. That, in my view, is at best misleading. Because it supposes that other equipment would be sold under the name Laser. No one with a half a brain for our trade laws would do that and there is no reason why we, the sailors and ILCA members, must use products labeled Laser way - unless we want to. We might just as well race with XYC-branded gear. It's up to us, not about legal necessities. We can put anything on our boats that we like. As long as we agree on the same product or standard, it will still be one design. It might simply be another one.
Your reasons for having a strict one design class and fostering a strong builder make sense to me. I wish we had builder supplied or rental boats at smaller events throughout Europe. Just imagine to hop on train or plane to sail with your blade bag to sail, say, a regular Master's event. For instance we just had a guy from Vienna here who borrowed a boat. Great.
However, that does not mean we need to accept any price for the products offered by the builder, that an organization representing almost 200.000 consumers can not negotiate, does it?
I agree that we should support our local dealers who take the time to show up at regattas. However, I doubt that happens often outside the U.S. With one supplier in Germany and none in South America, how could one hope for such a service? On the contrary, there are several dealers who regularly show up at Finn regattas for instance, without a monopoly builder and supply chain.
Basically I agree with torrid that the relationship is not a healthy one at the moment. If the dealers in Europe can afford to lower the regular price of "the" sail by almost 20 percent for no apparent reason, it seems the margin was more than enough. If I can get a main sail for a much larger dinghy custom made in Poland for the same money as a third world mass produced laser sail, something is way out of proportion.
Plus the damn things don't even last.
Can I touch on something here? With respect to the dealers it always seems that the viewpoint is always comprised of companys that only sell Lasers and Laser-related products. This is crazy. Let's use the automotive industry as an example as I'm very familiar with parts and the supply chain etc.
It seems this is an annual discussion...
... I'm optimistic that we'll have more news on this by the end of the year.
... and remember the story of how it became nearly impossible for South Americans to get boats, parts, sails, etc., after the builder down there went bankrupt - this in the modern internet era! The situation is still not perfect but LP has gone about re-establishing a dealer network throughout South America and it was reported at the World Council meeting, by the South American Vice Chairman, that the situation is definitely improving (though, to be fair, because a major issue is import duties from off-continent, their ideal solution involves a new South American based builder). ...