Foul weather sailing.

W

Webfoot

New Member
Ok guys, need some important info. Have had a Sunfish out in high winds before, (40+) but not high seas. Would like some tips on surviving when you're where you're not suppose to be. Will not hold anyone responsible for info.

Is it possible to reef a Lanteen rig?
Possible use of small sea anchor?
Safety line attached to boat?
Estimate of wave size X wave frequency where Sunfish type boat will flounder?
If boat repeatedly capsizes, throwing the mast and sail overboard to lower center of gravity as last resort?

Thanks in advance for any tales of "adventure." Really looking for wind and wave size that makes survival unlikely. Will then match with frequency of local weather conditions to calculate likelyhood of encountering such conditions.
 
What you are talking about is manifestly unsafe. You will probably die. If the water is cold, you will definitely die.

I have not had my Sunfish out in winds higher than 35 knots, and that was not on the ocean.

I've also have many ocean sea miles in big waves in the Atlantic, Pacific, and Med.

You could expect 15' seas 10-15 seconds apart with sustained winds in the order of 25-25 knots. In these conditions a 40-47 foot yacht will surf. Do you think a Sunfish would survive without the stability of a keel? No.

If caught on the ocean in the Sunfish, I'd try to stay in the troughs and drag a line behind me. I'd tie myself to the boat as well. I would not toss my rig overboard, although I might lower it and lash it down. if you survived and gave up your rig, then you would be on the ocean with no way to propel yourself.

Your sea anchor idea has merit. If you attached a 15" parachute type sea anchor thru the bow handle, with chafe protection and then made it off the the mast, with about a 100' of line, you might be able to create a small cone of protection for yourself. Go out and try it. Before you do, let me purchase some life insurance for you, with myself as the beneficiary.
 
I agree with NightSailor that this is one of those topics where the saying

DON'T GO THERE​

is appropriate.

Nevertheless, I will try to answer some of your questions.

Yes, it is possible to reef a Sunfish sail, but you can't really do this in extreme conditions. The method is to tie the Cunningham grommet to the S-hook at the intersection of the spars. This can only be done comfortably on land.

You can definitely sail a Sunfish in big waves, but you need to be skilled to do so.

Getting rid of the rig serves no purpose IMHO; and may, in fact, be detrimental to survival.

I have never heard of Sunfish sailors using a sea anchor. Downwind you may want to go fast, so as to limit stresses on the rig. But there may be conditions where it's conceivable that a sea anchor could be useful. I just don't know; NightSailor has some insights though.

PS: Most sailors overestimate the winds that they have seen.
 
Wavedancer said:
I agree with NightSailor that this is one of those topics where the saying

DON'T GO THERE​

is appropriate.

Yes, it is possible to reef a Sunfish sail, but you can't really do this in extreme conditions. The method is to tie the Cunningham grommet to the S-hook at the intersection of the spars. This can only be done comfortably on land.
Click to expand...

I've given the matter of reefing some thought also. I think you would have to reinforce the sail and have a full set of reef points and take in at least 30%, maybe 40% of the sail area. To keep the sail from ripping apart a more hollow cut leech would help. Storm sails are overbuilt for a reason.

It all seems rather pointless because we are talking survival conditions. A person would be flicked off the deck like a trampoline and never reacquire the boat.

Anyone who has sailed the ocean knows about its tedious nature. Sailing alone requires a boat with a tremendous about of gear to lessen the work, and provide a comfortable place to rest, sleep and eat.

Ocean sailing is wonderful once you get past an initial sea sickness. There is nothing as fun as surfing down big waves for hours and hours. But the proper boat is anything between an Open Class boat or a cruiser. The smallest I'd consider is a Mini Transat or Moore 24. A sunfish is what you bring along on your cruiser to have fun, once you get to the islands.
 
Webfoot said:
Will then match with frequency of local weather conditions to calculate likelyhood of encountering such conditions.
Click to expand...
Some practical experience in a Sunfish will outweigh many hours of armchair speculation. For my 2¢ I doubt you'll ever get off the beach without becoming severely Maytagged and busting equipment, even on inland waters. Those conditions are way outside what the boat was designed to handle.

Since there are relatively few videos of Sunfish, let alone Sunfish in extreme conditions, here's something from the Laser vids so you can visualize conditions just below those you are curious about.​
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2qBxax-W1Y"]YouTube - Extreme Reaching[/ame]
When we went out sailing it was 25 knots, with big waves. However, after half an hour the wind increased to over 35 knots, with gusts over 40. We were quite far upwind by this time, and the video shows our mad dash back to the safety of the SailBase.
www.sailcoach.com​

High winds without high seas is called iceboating.
 
Regarding the video, I would not call those big waves, and you could see they had difficulty--with all the capsizes at the end.
 
Nuts, I really don't want to die. Thanks for confirming my suspicions. The Sunfish might be ok for beach sailing on Lake Michigan but not coastal sailing. My biggest worry was getting stuck in bad weather and not being able to get ashore due to Bluffs, Ripp-Rap, Surf, etc. or being blow out into the lake.

Guess what I really need is a 21 foot Cape Dory. Good lazy sailer that can handle most of the weather (6 to 8 foot waves) that blow up without notice in lake Michigan. Trouble is I don't have a truck to haul it or a ramp steep enough to launch it. Not a fan of swing keel boats, they take such a big performance hit as well as having 500 lbs of steel hanging from a single bolt. No easy answers.

That Laser in the video is going faster than most power boats. That's not sailing, that's flying. The water just can't get out of the way fast enough! Those surf board dudes know how to survive swimming in big surf, I'd last about 4 minutes.
 
Do not buy a Cape Dory. It means the end is near.

One thing should be clear, sailing fast is fun. Part of the evolution of a sailor is a need for speed. I don't race much any more, but I still love to pass other boats--passing a powerboat or a sailboat under power is particularly rewarding. I love heavy weather sailing too--well, I like windy conditions in protected waters, and downwind sailing in heavy air on the ocean can be fun, but the range of comfort is a bit smaller.

It is intoxicating--which is why I was outside working in the rain today for three hours with my buddy Chris, putting deck hardware back on my Etchells (I recored the deck last year). I have pictures of myself working on that boat in 22 degree weather.

It is not suffering when you can see the end goal. And the thrills of sailing a high performance boat are a big part of why I find life so enjoyable.

Sunfishes are not as nice perhaps as Lasers, but if you are not racing, they are still wonderful because they are cheap and easy to find, more stable, and you can fit two on one. Every sailor should have one or two Sunfishes. I'm trying to figure out how to carry at least two of these on my big boat. I'd like to be able to carry four or more because few people seem to spend time small boat sailing in the Caribbean--I think it is the best place in the world for that.

If surfing is the best part of sailing. The Sunfish as a platform is a great way to learn that skill. Later you will be able to move up to bigger boats and pick up big boat skills easily. Small boats make the sailor.

Now if you want a keelboat, I'd recommend something like a Melges 24 or Johnson 18, something that is easy to ramp launch. A boat that you can store at home on a trailer will save you a lot of money. I used F-27 would be a fun boat too.

One last point. If you buy a boat in racing class, you can usually find used sails cheap. People who race buy new sails every year. After a while, they give them away. I got several nice sails for the cost of gas to pick them up--three years old, and look new, but were ever so slightly slow for racing that they were replaced. Total cost: $75 for new sail numbers, and $40 in gas. Something to think about.

A Cape Dory is for a man in his 70's that just wants a place to make moves on aging divorcees.

I don't think that is you.
 
NightSailor said:
Regarding the video, I would not call those big waves, and you could see they had difficulty--with all the capsizes at the end.
Click to expand...

Laser sailors just love to 'deathroll'.

PS: Recently published evidence strongly suggests that this trait is encoded in the genes of certain individuals.

PS #2. Sorry for taking this thread even further off course...

 
Wavedancer said:
Laser sailors just love to 'deathroll'.

PS: Recently published evidence strongly suggests that this trait is encoded in the genes of certain individuals.

PS #2. Sorry for taking this thread even further off course...
Click to expand...


I had a spectacular death roll last year. I was teaching a 15 year old boy how to sail. He had capsized my other Sunfish. I was planning on passing in front of him on mine, but he suddenly took off. I could not risk hitting him. I was moving like a bat out of hell. No time for a smooth gybe. I needed to dodge this kid. I let my mainsheet out all the way such that the boom was before the beam. I was safely behind him but now out of control. It was warm water and I didn't mind a bit. I wish I had it on tape.
 
Interesting mention about the Cape Dory. Was looking at one a few years back, owned by a older gentleman. Said he was sailing it and fell asleep. It sailed just fine by itself until it ran aground.
 
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