Racing Vs Rec Sails

shorefun

shorefun

Well-Known Member
Had my sunfish out in 15 gusting to 20 today. First time in heavy winds with the racing sail.

Night and Day difference. The rec sail wanted to round up into the wind and I lost rudder control going into the wind with the gunal buried in the water.
The racing sail let me keep on the line and the rudder force was way less. I was able to keep on the edge even when the gusts really pushed and I had control. With the rec sail I had to back way off to keep control.

Hope that makes sense. I am really just learning.
 
Check out thier website. It sounds like they are race cut sails. But that is now who knows in the past. Call them and ask.
 
Perfect. I thought that was the case but needed some confirmation from someone who knows what they are talking about.

Isn’t the race sail a little bigger. 85 sq ft vs 75?
 
shorefun said:
Had my sunfish out in 15 gusting to 20 today. First time in heavy winds with the racing sail.

Night and Day difference. The rec sail wanted to round up into the wind and I lost rudder control going into the wind with the gunal buried in the water.
The racing sail let me keep on the line and the rudder force was way less. I was able to keep on the edge even when the gusts really pushed and I had control. With the rec sail I had to back way off to keep control.

Hope that makes sense. I am really just learning.
Click to expand...
Did you have both sails rigged the same way wrt gooseneck position etc?
 
When your race sail looses it shape over time, it too will have the same poor characteristics as your recreational sail. The age, use, weight, manufacture of the cloth in your sail determines how it acts, not the title you place upon it. A high quality "recreational" sail will out perform a low quality race sail any day of the week. The title applied by the manufacture means nothing.
A new sail it typically cut with the overall proper shape. Over time, with every sail that shape changes and it always changes for the worst. Sails don't get flatter they get fuller with use and with fuller sails the force vectors result in more heel, more turbulence and drag. If you want to put a title on a sail (race/rec) call your new sail your "race" sail and your old beater your "rec" sail. Serious racers get a weekend regatta out of a new set of sails and sell them off and buy new again. They have refined their skill sets so that they can tell the difference between brand new and a weekend old set. The average sailor can not nor needs to.
There are class sails that are cut slightly different by different manufactures. This is often a regional occurrence. The sail shape you need for San Francesco bay is different than you need for Newport. Local sailmakers know this and tweak the shape of a sail to provide the best performance given the typical local conditions. People who travel to regattas often carry fuller cut and flatter cut sails selecting what works best for the found conditions. Fuller and flatter cut has no effect on sail area. All legal class sail can not exceed the class specified square foot area and often overall shape.
Intensity sails make a good sail for a price, just like that factory supplies a sail for a price. Both typically do not have your best interest in mind. If you are buying a class sail you probably have little choice on whos you purchase. The classes that mandate who you buy from are mandating how much of that sail purchase goes into their pocket. They typically try and justify your mandated purchase in terms of "fairness" but in reality it is their bottom line that dictates that purchase.
Dale
 
I have a problem with saying a good rec sail can keep up with a bad racing sail.

It is documented that the rec sail does not have as deep cut so it is flatter. The rec sail that came with my boat was pretty crinkley while the racing sail on my son's fish is kind of worn. His boat is also heavier then mine as it is an 80's hull and mine is a 2006.

My rec sail would round up in strong winds while my son's keep pointing. He would also pull away from me.

Finally if you ask google you get the answers...

"While they are both listed at 75 square foot, the racing sail is actually about 84 square foot when you consider the draft of the sail. Which is considerably deeper than the recreational sail. The 75 square foot comes from the actual flat area that forms the triangle between the booms and the leech of the sail ."
 
I would love to see this documentation that you refer to regarding fullness of cut in one sail verse the next. Each sailmaker has the ability to adjust the percentage of draft and its intended location during the construction and after for that matter with a recut. More importantly, where the draft is located fore and aft is a moving adjustable target.
A cloths finish known as hand by a sailmaker, is what I assume you refer to as "crinkley". A sails hand can also be selected by the sailmaker by specific application. The advantage of the finish of the cloth will never overcome the disadvantage of the sails shape. When it comes to overall performance, sail shape is everything, by design or the sailors ability to adjust it for a given condition.
I would also question assuming a hull weight by its date of birth. The lightest manufactured sunnys were the earliest glass boats but those numbers can only be determined and verified using a simple bathroom scale. Age (actually hours of use) has the greatest impact on performance as it effects the hulls stiffness. A hull that has been sailed hundreds of hours, especially in heavy conditions, has been flexed more than one that hasn't. The more it has been flexed the more it will flex. A stiffer hull distorts less under load and results in improved performance. Hull flex like line stretch, absorbs applied energy reducing overall performance instead of moving the hull forward.
A sail that rounds up under load and looses its ability to point is an indication of the sails shape, the draft has increased and or moved aft. The draft percentage maybe able to be reduced or moved forward with proper halyard tension and outhaul tension but it all depends on how gone it is.
Finally... ask google if it seems reasonable that the racing sail it is referencing is 9 sqft larger (11% increase) due to draft. A Sunfish has a leech length of 14.33 ft. A 9 sqft increase would be a strip of cloth along the leech length of approximately .628 ft wide or 7-1/2" ! Draft depth does not add sail area. If google knew how to sail it would know that a Sunfish sail with 3ft of measured draft had the same exposed sail area as a dead flat cut sail providing the luff, foot and leech remained the same.
Sail area alone does not equate to performance. Angle of heel, angle of attack, sail trim, rudder angle and fore and aft weight placement all greatly affect performance in a given sea state and wind velocity. All of these attributes provide feedback to the driver and it is the driver that determines what and how they are used to maximize or minimize VMG. When we coach sailors regarding improving a boats performance, introspection is most often the most important adjustable variable.
Dale
 
Dale, I don't mean to be critical, but there is a lot of incorrect or misleading information in what you have posted. I have added comments below to some of your comments.

would love to see this documentation that you refer to regarding fullness of cut in one sail verse the next. No documentation is needed for Sunfish. Hoist a racing sail and a rec sail next to each other and the differences are obvious. Both official LP rec sails, and aftermarket rec sails from places like Sunfish Direct and Pryde are OBVIOUSLY flatter than the LP race cut sail or the Intensity race cut sail.

A cloths finish known as hand by a sailmaker, is what I assume you refer to as "crinkley". A sails hand can also be selected by the sailmaker by specific application. The advantage of the finish of the cloth will never overcome the disadvantage of the sails shape. When it comes to overall performance, sail shape is everything, by design or the sailors ability to adjust it for a given condition. If you buy an official LP racing sail or an LP rec sail, each is EXTREMELY similar to the other in terms of hand. It seems about every 10 years or so one fabric becomes unavailable and a new fabric gets chosen, for the next decade or so they are all the same once again.

The lightest manufactured sunnys were the earliest glass boats but those numbers can only be determined and verified using a simple bathroom scale. That is simply incorrect. Early Sunfish were tanks and the factory specified weight was 139 lbs. Over the years the boats got lighter, and new ones for the past 25 years or so have been about 125 or so. The new ones with no foam blocks still seem to weigh about 125.

Age (actually hours of use) has the greatest impact on performance as it effects the hulls stiffness. A hull that has been sailed hundreds of hours, especially in heavy conditions, has been flexed more than one that hasn't. The more it has been flexed the more it will flex. A stiffer hull distorts less under load and results in improved performance. - True.

A sail that rounds up under load and looses its ability to point is an indication of the sails shape, the draft has increased and or moved aft. The draft percentage maybe able to be reduced or moved forward with proper halyard tension and outhaul tension. While true, the major way to move draft on a Sunfish is to move the gooseneck. That impact is vastly greater than adjusting the outhaul or cunningham.

Draft depth does not add sail area. It most certainly does. Imagine two sails, both cut to fit on Sunfish spars. The first is flat, flat, flat. The second is basically taking the shape of a cereal bowl - extreme depth to the draft. It is pretty obvious that it takes a lot more material to make a sail with huge belly like that vs. the flat one.

Sail area alone does not equate to performance. Angle of heel, angle of attack, sail trim, rudder angle and fore and aft weight placement all greatly affect performance in a given sea state and wind velocity. Certainly. Just putting up a bigger or better sail does not mean you will all of the sudden go fast and win races.

Over time, with every sail that shape changes and it always changes for the worst. True.

There are class sails that are cut slightly different by different manufactures. This is often a regional occurrence. The sail shape you need for San Francesco bay is different than you need for Newport. Local sailmakers know this and tweak the shape of a sail to provide the best performance given the typical local conditions. People who travel to regattas often carry fuller cut and flatter cut sails selecting what works best for the found conditions. While true, this does not pertain to Sunfish. All official racing sails are the same. You cannot buy one optimized for Newport vs. San Francisco.

All legal class sail can not exceed the class specified square foot area and often overall shape. For Sunfish, the sail area and sail power grew with the introduction of the racing sail (see the cereal bowl comment above) but that was done in the confines of existing spar length.

Intensity sails make a good sail for a price, just like that factory supplies a sail for a price. Both typically do not have your best interest in mind. If you are buying a class sail you probably have little choice on whos you purchase. The classes that mandate who you buy from are mandating how much of that sail purchase goes into their pocket. They typically try and justify your mandated purchase in terms of "fairness" but in reality it is their bottom line that dictates that purchase. I think Intensity does have the best interest of the sailor in mind. They make a good sail at a good price. Regarding class legal sails, until the Sunfish class recently introduced the ISCA North sail, the class got $0 proceeds from the sale of sails. It all went to LP. I have heard the class is getting some sort of royalty from the ISCA North sails, but it is much fairer to have all the sails the same rather than having many makers try to make faster sails and be able to charge more if their sail is perceived as superior.

You also mentioned that serious racers get a new sail for each event. That may be true for some classes, but does not seem to be true for Sunfish. I have raced them since my cone was much smaller, and many top sailors use sails for a season or two or three before getting a new one.

Lastly, your comment that a new rec sail can perform equally to a new rec sail is just not true. Rec sails are just too flat such that even a blown-out racing sail has an advantage with its fuller shape and greater power. Perhaps a blown out rec sail would do better than a new rec sail, but itll never be as good as a racing sail.

BB
 
Dale, I don't mean to be critical, but there is a lot of incorrect or misleading information in what you have posted. I have added comments below to some of your comments.

would love to see this documentation that you refer to regarding fullness of cut in one sail verse the next. No documentation is needed for Sunfish. Hoist a racing sail and a rec sail next to each other and the differences are obvious. Both official LP rec sails, and aftermarket rec sails from places like Sunfish Direct and Pryde are OBVIOUSLY flatter than the LP race cut sail or the Intensity race cut sail. I find it unusual that you do not require documentation or at least numbers to define fullness in a sail for a Sunfish when in any other class it is critical. Percentage of draft and maximum draft are all definable numbers when quantifying a sails shape. In order to know what you are really buying the numbers are very important. So if we adopt your thinking that all rec sails are cut flat and race sails are cut fuller, a good rec sails will outperform a race sail in flat water and point highter.

A cloths finish known as hand by a sailmaker, is what I assume you refer to as "crinkley". A sails hand can also be selected by the sailmaker by specific application. The advantage of the finish of the cloth will never overcome the disadvantage of the sails shape. When it comes to overall performance, sail shape is everything, by design or the sailors ability to adjust it for a given condition. If you buy an official LP racing sail or an LP rec sail, each is EXTREMELY similar to the other in terms of hand. It seems about every 10 years or so one fabric becomes unavailable and a new fabric gets chosen, for the next decade or so they are all the same once again. words like "EXTREAMLY similar" and "it seems" mean nothing. Yarn counts, the denier per inch and the resins used in the manufacture of the cloth all have specific numbers attached to them. Each item changes the cloths physical properties. These documented numbers remove the guesswork feel when designing a sail and the numbers do not change every 10 or so years.

The lightest manufactured sunnys were the earliest glass boats but those numbers can only be determined and verified using a simple bathroom scale. That is simply incorrect. Early Sunfish were tanks and the factory specified weight was 139 lbs. Over the years the boats got lighter, and new ones for the past 25 years or so have been about 125 or so. The new ones with no foam blocks still seem to weigh about 125. Hulls prior to the striped deck boats weigh less than for example the rolled edge Pearson boats of the late 80's, I have several 60's vintage boats. The extended cockpit tub added weight in the 1971 and up boats. Because the boats were hand lay up, inconsistencies abound.

A sail that rounds up under load and looses its ability to point is an indication of the sails shape, the draft has increased and or moved aft. The draft percentage maybe able to be reduced or moved forward with proper halyard tension and outhaul tension. While true, the major way to move draft on a Sunfish is to move the gooseneck. That impact is vastly greater than adjusting the outhaul or cunningham.

Draft depth does not add sail area. It most certainly does. Imagine two sails, both cut to fit on Sunfish spars. The first is flat, flat, flat. The second is basically taking the shape of a cereal bowl - extreme depth to the draft. It is pretty obvious that it takes a lot more material to make a sail with huge belly like that vs. the flat one. Sail area is not determined by the amount of cloth required to manufacture the shape of a sail rather the exposed area that the sail shape has. Let's take your example to extremes and say the sailmaker doubled up the corner patches, extra cloth correct? No added exposed sail area. Extreme depth (draft) equals no additional exposed sail area just added power, drag coefficient and reduced pointing ability. When a sailmaker or a rating measure measures a mainsail, no penalty is assed for excessive draft because it does not add to the area.

Sail area alone does not equate to performance. Angle of heel, angle of attack, sail trim, rudder angle and fore and aft weight placement all greatly affect performance in a given sea state and wind velocity. Certainly. Just putting up a bigger or better sail does not mean you will all of the sudden go fast and win races. Oh my... in the hands of a skilled sailor or perhaps unskilled "putting up a bigger or better sail" typically means you will indeed all of a sudden go faster and win races. If bigger did not mean anything why do classes strictly limit sail area? Why are sails measured at all major events? Why are sail dimensions recorded and documented by all race handicapping organizations? And as for better, why would anyone spend their hard earned money to replace a sail if it had no positive impact on how fast or well the boat sailed?

All legal class sail can not exceed the class specified square foot area and often overall shape. For Sunfish, the sail area and sail power grew with the introduction of the racing sail (see the cereal bowl comment above) but that was done in the confines of existing spar length. The only way a sails area can exceed the confines of the spar dimensions is with the addition of roach, defined as that exposed area outside of the straight line of the leech. A sails power can be adjusted with the addition of draft which once again does not change the sails exposed area. A fuller cut sail will indeed punch through waves better but at the cost of height.

Intensity sails make a good sail for a price, just like that factory supplies a sail for a price. Both typically do not have your best interest in mind. If you are buying a class sail you probably have little choice on whos you purchase. The classes that mandate who you buy from are mandating how much of that sail purchase goes into their pocket. They typically try and justify your mandated purchase in terms of "fairness" but in reality it is their bottom line that dictates that purchase. I think Intensity does have the best interest of the sailor in mind. They make a good sail at a good price. Like all sailmakers, Intensities job is to make a sail that the customer will purchase over the competitions sail and still make money, and for many sailors that decision is made solely on price. That being said the decision making behind any sail is a balance of performance and cost. Cost vs selling price dictates profit and profit is how Precision stays in business. Regarding class legal sails, until the Sunfish class recently introduced the ISCA North sail, the class got $0 proceeds from the sale of sails. It all went to LP. It should go to the manufacture not the class. The class is in it for fun, the manufacture has all the skin in the game. I have heard the class is getting some sort of royalty from the ISCA North sails, but it is much fairer to have all the sails the same rather than having many makers try to make faster sails and be able to charge more if their sail is perceived as superior. Wow... I mentioned that fairer thing. What is fair about limiting competition? What is fair about mandating buying a replacement sail from one source? Have we forgotten the not so long ago sail fiasco with LP and not even being able to buy them? We were a North dealer at the time and couldn't even buy a Sunfish sail direct through North, they had to go through LP. What is fair about a self imposed monopoly and what do monopoly's do? They raise the price because they can. If people and sailmakers didn't search for better designs, better materials and better methods you would be sailing your lateen rig with hemp canvas on high still today and trailering it behind a horse.
You also mentioned that serious racers get a new sail for each event. That may be true for some classes, but does not seem to be true for Sunfish. I have raced them since my cone was much smaller, and many top sailors use sails for a season or two or three before getting a new one. When a sailor reaches the level where they can tell a drop off of performance they upgrade to renew that performance, otherwise they are just wasting their time. On a Sunfish it may take a season to loose that performance criteria, for others a lifetime.

Lastly, your comment that a new rec sail can perform equally to a new rec sail is just not true. Rec sails are just too flat such that even a blown-out racing sail has an advantage with its fuller shape and greater power. Perhaps a blown out rec sail would do better than a new rec sail, but itll never be as good as a racing sail. You do realize that a flat sail in light air (>10kts) will out preform a fuller cut sail? Out preform meaning point higher and achieve greater overall speed. You do realize that a flat sail in heavy air will out preform a fuller sail? The numbers are that 80% of the sailing events in the United States are held in less than 10 kts. If you want to drastically improve your overall performance learn how to sail well in less than 10 kts. Any one can sail with wind, only the best can do so with little wind.

Dale
 
Dale, thanks for your response. However, after reading it, I stand by all my original comments, and I'll add that a number of your comments don't pertain to Sunfish. For example, I disagree on your blanket statements about sail performance. For instance, your comments about "You do realize that a flat sail in light air (>10kts) will out perform a fuller cut sail? Out perform meaning point higher and achieve greater overall speed. You do realize that a flat sail in heavy air will out perform a fuller sail? " are purely theoretical. The real question is which sails provide better VMG. Its highly unlikely you can find a sail will go upwind both higher and faster than a fuller one. Its much more likely it'll go higher and slower. Then it is a question of whether the sail that goes lower and faster provides better VMG than one that goes higher and slower.

The above discussion though really does not pertain to classes like the Sunfish and Laser/ILCA. Those two classes in particular regulate sail shape so that all the sails are the same - or as close to the same as cutting and sewing technology permits. This strict one design principle is what has made these two boats such incredibly popular races.

BB
 
To expand a little on the prior posts, class-legal ILCA sails are currently made by three companies (North, Hyde and Pryde) and are under very strict control by the class.
Until recently, (class legal) Sunfish racing sails were manufactured exclusively in a North loft in Sri Lanka and sold through LaserPerformance (LP).
A year or two ago LP decided to switch sailmakers for the Sunfish which has led to a shortage :(. The class (ISCA) jumped in this year and has (temporarily?) legalized Sunfish sails made by North once again. These sails do not pass through LP (and do not carry the Sunfish image).
 
Wavedancer said:
To expand a little on the prior posts, class-legal ILCA sails are currently made by three companies (North, Hyde and Pryde) and are under very strict control by the class.
Until recently, (class legal) Sunfish racing sails were manufactured exclusively in a North loft in Sri Lanka and sold through LaserPerformance (LP).
A year or two ago LP decided to switch sailmakers for the Sunfish which has led to a shortage :(. The class (ISCA) jumped in this year and has (temporarily?) legalized Sunfish sails made by North once again. These sails do not pass through LP (and do not carry the Sunfish image).
Click to expand...


Where have you heard that Hyde and Pryde have been approved by ISCA to make class legal Sunfish sails?
 
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