Coolio Dudeio
New Member
I hear that hiking the wrong way in a laser can seriously damage your back. i have searched different forums but cant seem to find any discussing the right way to hike. Any advice anybody?
Hiking Methods
- Thread starter Coolio Dudeio
- Start date
Philip
New Member
Have not heard anything about the back but lots about knees. The following from Rooster www.roostersailing.com
Go to:
http://www.roostersailing.com/articles/Hiking_Style.html
Phil
Go to:
http://www.roostersailing.com/articles/Hiking_Style.html
Phil
Coolio Dudeio said:
In years gone by, weight jackets were worn to give more leverage, these have been banned because of the back damage caused, especially to young developing bodies, which maybe where you got the bad back thing from.
Most coaches, gun sailors incl Michael Blackburn favour straight leg hiking (ie. no daylight between deck & knees) for maximum leverage and protection to knees. on the other hand Ben Ainslie prefers bent leg! Hiking pants with battens are a must if you intend spending much time hanging out there.
Protect ankles with supportive hiking boots/shoes if your prone to ankle trouble or sailing heaps.
this isnt not so true the reason that the weight jackets where banned was because it was giving lighter sailors too much advantage eg they could win in heavy and light winds where only heavier sailor could only win in heavy winds but when the light when was there they were extremely disadvantaged "considered Unsports manlike". The two ways of hiking (as stipulated by LaserLady) straight legged hiking and bent leg hiking, straight legged hiking is harder and requires lots of strength and also exerts lots of pressure on the ankle bones and especially the back. Bent leg hiking is easier but doesnt get the weight out as far, but you can hold it for a long time. I prefer straight legged hiking upwind then when reaching or broad reaching i like the bent leg approch. So its all a much of a muchness so if you want to straight leg hike make sure you have the strenght and know how to hiking straight legged properly or you run a good chance of damaging yourself, but bent leg hiking is easier, safer and you can still walk at the end of the day
Dennis
Member
Hike straight-legged?
Aarrrrgh!
Hike bent-kneed?
Haaaarrrl!
They're both good!
Dennis
Tomales Bay, CA
Aarrrrgh!
Hike bent-kneed?
Haaaarrrl!
They're both good!
Dennis
Tomales Bay, CA
Coolio Dudeio said:
ive been told that straight legged hiking is the way to go because bent leg hiking is seriously bad for knee ligaments: cruchiet (excuse the spelling) while static and also very bad for both medial ligaments while moving (as we all do in waves or steering/sheeting)
ive also been told that is it bad to hike from the toes for extended periods of time but im not sure of the reasons for that (presuming it is bad for ankle ligaments)
id rather straight-leggedly hike my ass off all saturday and spend sunday limited to a deformed fetal positon than hike with bent legs and have to give up sailing (lasers anyway) at 25 because my knees are gone
ive also been told that is it bad to hike from the toes for extended periods of time but im not sure of the reasons for that (presuming it is bad for ankle ligaments)
id rather straight-leggedly hike my ass off all saturday and spend sunday limited to a deformed fetal positon than hike with bent legs and have to give up sailing (lasers anyway) at 25 because my knees are gone
True true but the pressure when hiking straight legged uses your back muscles more which tend to be there for supporting the back and not over extended work on the back and you mainly end up with stress fractures in your back ( lately lots of stress fractures have been found in very young and old laser sailors due to straight legged hiking) but hiking with bent knee hiking you tend to use your quadtricept and hamstring more ( the two biggest muscles in the body) which gives you better support. so meh lol
Tom said:Bent leg hiking is easier but doesnt get the weight out as far, but you can hold it for a long time. [...] bent leg hiking is easier, safer and you can still walk at the end of the day
Careful. Bent leg hiking feels easier, but over the long haul, it isn't.
In straight-leg hiking, your quadriceps muscles (front of your upper leg) do the work. They feel totally beat and sore at the tend of the day. But muscles are designed to be worked hard, and working them hard only makes them stronger.
With bent-leg hiking, a lot of weight is borne by the cartilege and ligaments inside your knee joint. Unlike muscles, overwork isn't good for these parts of your body. Also, they don't have nerve endings in them; you don't feel pain when you're chronically abusing them, and everything feels easy and great until you wind up at age 45 with totally blown-out knees.
Efficient hiking is one thing we work on really hard at my club. We all straight leg hike. Although it is painful at first, you can really control the boat well with your legs. When there is a puff and you are completely straight legged, you can push the boat down with your kness and the rest of your legs. From this position you can also "torque" the boat (heading the boat up or down by thrusting you weight for or aft which transfers this to your legs and in turn, the boat.) Torquing reduces rudder movement and keeps the boat going fast.
As to why you shouldn't straight leg hike from your tippy toes the first time you do it, well my coach had a friend who did that and he couldn't walk right for a week.
Straight leg hiking really works your quads (as Chris said above) and a great way to straighten these is to do wall squats each day little by little increasing the time.
As to why you shouldn't straight leg hike from your tippy toes the first time you do it, well my coach had a friend who did that and he couldn't walk right for a week.
Straight leg hiking really works your quads (as Chris said above) and a great way to straighten these is to do wall squats each day little by little increasing the time.
Rob B
Well-Known Member
I would straight leg hike if I could. I believe there are several advantages to it. One for sure is you can keep your big fat ass out of the water more easily with straight legs. As fo me, my ass drags quite a bit with the bent leg style. I can straight leg for most reaching, but not strong enough for the long weather legs. Maybe I can get there before my knees go!
Straight leg is the way to go, any coach will tell you.
I am 142lbs and i sail radial in Nova Scotia and if you hav'nt sailed here before ill tell you that theres a hell of a lot of wind. I very often straight leg with just my toes under the strap to hold my boat down in 25-30knots and im normally sucessfull in doing so but it does bring out some not so happy words while doing so.
The main thing to do to be a strong hiker is to train and condition a lot, long periods of wall-sits, sit-ups, leg raises, hiking bench, they all pay off enourmously.
I am 142lbs and i sail radial in Nova Scotia and if you hav'nt sailed here before ill tell you that theres a hell of a lot of wind. I very often straight leg with just my toes under the strap to hold my boat down in 25-30knots and im normally sucessfull in doing so but it does bring out some not so happy words while doing so.
The main thing to do to be a strong hiker is to train and condition a lot, long periods of wall-sits, sit-ups, leg raises, hiking bench, they all pay off enourmously.
Teeftie said:
My doc (serious sports medicine guy who works with a lot of athletes) told me not to do deep wall sits -- he said don't bend the knees all the way to 90 degrees but stop well before that.
"But how am I going to get the muscle conditioning?" I asked
"Just hold it for longer" he said.
Chris123 said:
Also you could try "leg circles" ( a pilates exercise) Lie on your back, legs extended. Slowly raise one leg up to 90 degrees (max), circle outwards and down, then back up etc, without touching the ground Do it slowly, bigger circles are better, do some with the foot pointed, and some foot flexed, some with the leg turned out(rotate from the hip so you are looking at your inner thigh) you will feel different muscles working & tendons being stretched. How many you do will depend on your fitness level, and obviously do the same on both legs. This exercise also works your abs & back, good for core stability, and there is no weight bearing load on your knees.
Roadie
Member
Hiking with bone tight straps, pointed toes and dead straight legs can seriously damage you legs. As can hiking with long straps and in the classic Finn 'W' style. The best way to hike is just to have your toes neutral (neither pointed or at the sky) with you legs pretty straight (less than 120 degrees of bend but not dead straight) and have the strap as tight as possible before it makes you point your toes and turn you feet inwards. This will hurt a lot to begin because your muscles are being stressed in ways they aren't used to but give your self a days rest after a lot of hiking and get back to it as soon as possible, . Your muscles will soon adapt and it will get really easy over time. It is a good method of hiking because you can really feel the boat under you and torque against it and work the boat, without damaging yourself. The only way to 'condition your muscles' is to get out there and hike in the above method, try to avoid high impact sport like running as they can damage your knees, cycling is much better. However be careful to hike much more than you cycle or you muscles will adapt to cycling rather than hiking, which makes all that pain and suffering useless.
Hope this helps.
Roadie
Hope this helps.
Roadie
laserxd
Member
there are a lot of exercises that you can do to strengthen the muscles used for laser sailing, you want to focus on core exercises which will help with everything you do
the back in general is an easy place to injure,
I find the best way to hike is to have your knees bent slightly, (locking your knees doesn't feel good and can damage your knees)
adjust your strap for different conditions and point of sail, (tighter for flat water close hauled, tightest for reaching), if it's too tight it will be painful and you won't be hiking as hard as you could be
try to keep your shoulders back and hands up by your chest, you get more hiking power and will hold better posture, I find it more comfortable
also try not to over extend your neck and try to keep your head balanced
it's also very important to stretch on a regular basis, and especially right after sailing
stretching right before sailing actually doesn't help prevent injury, if you do like to stretch before sailing (I do) do an active warmup (light jog, ect) then stretch
Think warm, hydrated and loose
the back in general is an easy place to injure,
I find the best way to hike is to have your knees bent slightly, (locking your knees doesn't feel good and can damage your knees)
adjust your strap for different conditions and point of sail, (tighter for flat water close hauled, tightest for reaching), if it's too tight it will be painful and you won't be hiking as hard as you could be
try to keep your shoulders back and hands up by your chest, you get more hiking power and will hold better posture, I find it more comfortable
also try not to over extend your neck and try to keep your head balanced
it's also very important to stretch on a regular basis, and especially right after sailing
stretching right before sailing actually doesn't help prevent injury, if you do like to stretch before sailing (I do) do an active warmup (light jog, ect) then stretch
Think warm, hydrated and loose
Do you have a recommendation/guide/video on the best way to rig the hiking strap so it can be tightened adequately?
I rigged mine up like this, http://claysails.com/index.php?q=gallery&g2_itemId=1511 but still found it to slip/stretch by the end of my two hour long sail.
I rigged mine up like this, http://claysails.com/index.php?q=gallery&g2_itemId=1511 but still found it to slip/stretch by the end of my two hour long sail.
CaptainAhab
Active Member
It slips because you are using Spectra/Dyneema line. It is very slippery. There is hardly any weight on the strap. You can use any common line that has a typical polyester cover.
Kratos
Member
Your muscles don't know whether you are cycling or hiking.
The best way to get better at hiking is to hike more, but cycling is not going to affect that.
Sailorchick
Member
Get some good hiking shorts. Battens in the right place really help with comfort which lets you work harder for longer.
Ensure your toestrap length is correct. Not too long, not too short - you are looking for equal pressure on your calves and thighs when fully hiked. Straight legged but not locked knees.
Don't cross your feet/legs. Feet should be relaxed so not ballet style pointed or toes to the sky, but somewhere inbetween.
End result should have you feeling comfortably locked into the boat when hiking. If your feet feel floaty or very restricted its not set up well.
If when you get off the water after a long sail you have pain (muscular ache from usage is normal) then something is not right. Whether this is back pain, knee pain or anything else you need to have a look at your setup and technique.
Off water fitness - cycling, weights etc all help just ensure you have good technique with these too. Excellent core fitness is required so lots of core work.
Lots of hours on the water is the only way to really build your hiking stamina.
Ensure your toestrap length is correct. Not too long, not too short - you are looking for equal pressure on your calves and thighs when fully hiked. Straight legged but not locked knees.
Don't cross your feet/legs. Feet should be relaxed so not ballet style pointed or toes to the sky, but somewhere inbetween.
End result should have you feeling comfortably locked into the boat when hiking. If your feet feel floaty or very restricted its not set up well.
If when you get off the water after a long sail you have pain (muscular ache from usage is normal) then something is not right. Whether this is back pain, knee pain or anything else you need to have a look at your setup and technique.
Off water fitness - cycling, weights etc all help just ensure you have good technique with these too. Excellent core fitness is required so lots of core work.
Lots of hours on the water is the only way to really build your hiking stamina.
Roadie
Member
Surely cycling excessively will cause you to build up muscles in places around your legs that are counter intuitive?
Sailorchick
Member
If that was the case why do all the top laser sailors cycle lots. They all take their bikes with them to training camps and would probably be very competitive road cyclists if they changed sport.
Voodoo 158546
Hard hiking at the end of a 3hr race, killer
Gotta throw my tuppence worth in here.
I feel I'm in a good position to comment.
I used to just sail just Laser 1989 -94, my best sailing compadre used to hike bent leg I sailed straight leg. We both weighed about the same, same height, both mtb'ers.
It was noticeable on the water that I went that bit faster, flatter, less splashy, less stick movements...
Once off the water he would always bemoan about his aching legs and small of his back. I was always nagging him to not be lazy and get extended but he never would..
I had legs like tree trunks from cycling in hard gear most of the time, he always used to do about fifty revolutions to my nine kind of thing. I used to laugh at him.
Thing is, these days, my patella's have been pulled outwards by the dominant giant muscle, I'm going through the process of re training them as we speak. I thought going Lasering again might have been a bad idea but straight legging with toestrap over the instep, using the inner thigh muscles for control is 1 - doing me a favour. 2 - actually sustainable for extended beats, not uncomfortable although hiking generally is a graft.
I fell over a Rottweiler way back in 93, had a squashed l5/s1joint and plenty of daft trouble with it on an off for years since, but recently I'm enjoying all the lasering again with ( touch wood) no issues, I feel stronger as opposed to fatigued after a weekends blasting....
straight legged ,instep toestrap, feet neutral
I feel I'm in a good position to comment.
I used to just sail just Laser 1989 -94, my best sailing compadre used to hike bent leg I sailed straight leg. We both weighed about the same, same height, both mtb'ers.
It was noticeable on the water that I went that bit faster, flatter, less splashy, less stick movements...
Once off the water he would always bemoan about his aching legs and small of his back. I was always nagging him to not be lazy and get extended but he never would..
I had legs like tree trunks from cycling in hard gear most of the time, he always used to do about fifty revolutions to my nine kind of thing. I used to laugh at him.
Thing is, these days, my patella's have been pulled outwards by the dominant giant muscle, I'm going through the process of re training them as we speak. I thought going Lasering again might have been a bad idea but straight legging with toestrap over the instep, using the inner thigh muscles for control is 1 - doing me a favour. 2 - actually sustainable for extended beats, not uncomfortable although hiking generally is a graft.
I fell over a Rottweiler way back in 93, had a squashed l5/s1joint and plenty of daft trouble with it on an off for years since, but recently I'm enjoying all the lasering again with ( touch wood) no issues, I feel stronger as opposed to fatigued after a weekends blasting....
straight legged ,instep toestrap, feet neutral
Emilio Castelli
Active Member
They would not be very competitive road cyclists as they're all too heavy to climb fast. Froome is over 6' and weights less than 160lb.
Maybe crits or track...
E
Roadie
Member
Fair enough, if all the top sailors do it then cycling is the way to go. I'm not trying to argue you guys down I was just wondering.
