470 Questions

Discussion in '470 Discussion' started by Ryan@470, Dec 6, 2017.

  1. Ryan@470

    Ryan@470 Member

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  2. LaLi

    LaLi Active Member

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    Sand it, and then varnish. Repeat that a couple times (and a few more in worn areas), then wet sand it to get a smooth surface.

    Now that looks like a very strange arrangement for the centreboard bolt, with the triangular pieces of metal. Either that was allowed (or even standard, though I doubt that) in 1974, or it's an original design by a previous owner. Is there a hole (probably filled-in) in the centreboard trunk where the pivot bolt is supposed to go through? How is the metal triangle on the other side attached to the board?

    The class rules allow for strips (min 30o mm long, max 30 mm wide) of any material for reducing friction and/or play inside the centreboard trunk. They're customarily plastic taped along both openings.

    The problem with your system seems to be that the board rests against the hard edges and corners of those metal pieces inside the trunk. You probably need to discard them and install a "regular" bolt.
     
  3. Ryan@470

    Ryan@470 Member

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    The “triangluar pieces of metal” fit in the centreboard trunk in the orientation of a “V”. The top is sunk, so the plane of the mount, and the plane of the metal mount are flush. The inside of the trunk is also molded flush — so this was obviously a predetermined part. It does make removing the centreboard easy, just undo the bolts on top. I can’t really tell how the other triangle is attached to the first triangle, but it seems to be threaded into a bushing from both sides. Once in the trunk, the screws become captured, and can’t back out.


    So tape to inside of the trunk? Or in this case, tape around the centreboard (actually on the centreboard)?

    Thanks! B0344FBF-3E7D-4560-B0C0-C0ED428E7684.jpeg 8ABC6034-7A6B-4DAB-B402-ED6304CBA2E6.jpeg 76A9A3F9-1D71-46B8-BEDB-24F48B333BAB.jpeg
     
  4. LaLi

    LaLi Active Member

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    Interesting. That is really something that I've never seen before. Even looking at the pictures, it's still hard to say whether that was the original arrangement or not.

    Even if the triangles are flush with the surface of the trunk, there's a GRP/metal discontinuity, and wood-against-metal friction. If you stick with this system, be sure to file/sand all parts so they're reasonably smooth. (You should do that anyway - there are some rough spots visible at the edge of the opening.)
    After that, you can apply this kind of stuff: Japanese Glide Tape, 3/4
    You place that within a few millimetres of the edges of the inside of the trunk (the bottom edge isn't straight but the tape doesn't have to follow it exactly), for more or less the whole length.
     
  5. LaLi

    LaLi Active Member

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    Does this look familiar? :D

    [​IMG]

    I was googling for 470 pictures and found many early-1970s French and Spanish boats with interesting technical/historical details... If you blow up the above picture, you see that this one has the same centreboard bolt system as yours. So it is original and was legal at least for a short time (which means that, being a structural feature, it remains legal for ever in the boats that had it in the first place).

    This boat also features the short diagonal cockpit floor stringers, which seems to have been another very short-lived development. More pictures here: Etre débutant sachant débuter

    (And to come back to the spinnaker bags, once again: I'm beginning to think that they had none whatsoever at the time! The hooks were then really needed for the spinnaker sheets and halyard. What a mess even a spinnaker-down capsize must have been.)
     
  6. Ryan@470

    Ryan@470 Member

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    Ah yes, that does look very familiar :D.

    These are a few pictures from a pamphlet that the previous ower had with the boat:

    Interesting thought that bags were added on later, I still do plan on installing them :).

    Also, there looks like a hiking strap for crew attached to the trunk support, that can’t be legal :eek:.

    Thanks for the cool find!
     

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  7. Ryan@470

    Ryan@470 Member

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    There’s a park that opens up to Lake Ontario, that is about a mile from home. The park allows canoeing/kayaking and other “non powered water sports” but no swimming. Figureing this makes sailing ok (I’ll clarify this with a park manager), I wanted to be able to drop my sailboat in the water close to home for early summer, then take it to our family cottage until October :(. In order to beach launch (by the way, I won’t be beach launching at the cottage, there’s hoists for that) I would need (?) a cradle dolly to walk it in into the water? I have a trailer. The dollies online look incredibly simple, but cost a fortune. I might just make my own.

    Are there any requirements (such as length of sling, or type of padding) that I should be concerned about? Is the boat light enough to pick up without a dolly (with possibly 3 to 4 people)? How does this type of boat typically get launched? We’ve been spoiled with hoists for everything (even the sunfish has a jetski hoist :confused:).



    The arrow shows the planned entry. Not a lot of room, and plenty of trees.

    28814E26-A42E-4909-9565-E23D2E6DA319.jpeg
     
  8. LaLi

    LaLi Active Member

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    Great, thanks! Nice to see how it was intended to be set up. Which brings up the question I've had in mind for some time: do you want this boat to be as close as possible to the original, totally modernized, or something in between? It would help in making choices if you had a basic fitting-out philosophy like that.
    It is legal to fit hiking straps anywhere in the cockpit, but it isn't very smart to lead them where a trapezing crew member needs to cross the boat...
    With a trolley, down a ramp or a beach.
    The boat weighs 120 kg, so two strong-ish people should be able to carry it for some distance, especially if a third one helps with balancing at the bow. With four it should be pretty easy.
    If you're going to build a trolley yourself, you will have to take the measurements for it yourself from your hull. The wheels should probably be just behind the traveller; just about any padding that doesn't wear too quickly is good, my Laser trolleys have plastic tube for the purpose and it works.
     
  9. Ryan@470

    Ryan@470 Member

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    Have not thought about it really... I guess my goal is to have a 1 - functional, 2 - class legal, 3 - durable, 4 - safe, 5 - clean dinghy that I can sail the life out of :D. Anything goes to achieve that. I plan on taking very good care of the boat, and expect many years despite its vintage. I put "class legal" as #2 because though I don't have any plans on racing, I may someday wash up into a yacht club, or some other sailing group (so I'll try to keep it legal, which according to you isn't as difficult as I previously thought.)

    My "basic fitting-out philosophy" would be something like this:

    1 - If something old makes the boat less functional, or easy to use, I would replace it/fix it/update it with modern methods.
    2 - If the modification (somehow) makes the boat not class legal, look for a different alternative.
    3 - If the boat has a soft tank, fix it (it has nice large inspection ports anyways :D) If fittings break, they are probably worn out/old, fix with new gear.
    4 - If a rigging setup is possibly dangerous, look for an alternative (if there is one), or learn how to cope with the condition safely.
    5 - Keep it clean! I have seen way too many neglected dinghies that rot away inside out just because they didn't let the water out of the hull :eek:. A clean hull also looks nice, is faster and easier to maintain in the long run.

    So... in short somewhere in between, being modified as seen fit and practical.
     
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  10. Ryan@470

    Ryan@470 Member

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    So that "someday washing up into a yacht club" may happen sooner than I thought :cool:. A local club is offering a very reasonably priced program that gives you access to their fleet of twenty 420s, daily and racing on Wednesdays. First of all, I have never raced officially before so I'm not really sure what I'm getting myself into :eek:... sounds like fun though :D. Second, I figured that this opportunity may benefit me in learning skills about the 470, such as sailing efficiently with crew, and single trapping.

    I realize that the 470 and 420 are different classes, however, they both involve a single trapeze, and basically the same rig (jib, main, symmetric spinnaker...). How different are these boats? Are there practices in a 420 that are not suitable for a 470?

    I'm not sure whether the equipment is the "International 420" or the "Club 420" - I asked in an email. What is the difference between these two boats? Are they both single trap, symmetrical spinnaker one design like the 470? (I'm guessing that the boats are Club 420s as thats whats popular here).
     
  11. LaLi

    LaLi Active Member

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    Yes. That sounds very good. Do it.
    Yes. The most important thing would be to get coaching, especially with the basics of trapezing. Does the club have qualified coaches?
    They're very similar - a 420 is like a 470 with half a metre cut off the bow and 25 % less sail area. (Historically it's actually the other way round: it's more like the 470 being an extended 420, as it was designed five years later.) The 420 likes obviously a somewhat smaller crew, and has simpler control systems. If you can sail either you can sail the other. It's not even much of an exaggeration to call them the "grassroots" and "elite" branches of the same class.
    Apart from the weird custom of sheeting the jib with both sheets at once, I can't think of any.
    As you're in the United States, these boats are most likely C420s, which is a development of the simplified and heavier boat that Vanguard had built for the US collegiate market since the early 1970s. It has a spinnaker and trapeze, but the mast is untapered, and it retains the original deck arrangement (no forward tank) that the International class ditched about 20 years ago.
    But it's also posssible that those club boats are "college" equipped, which means no trapeze or spinnaker. That of course would make the program much less attractive/useful for you. But you'll find out soon.
     
  12. Ryan@470

    Ryan@470 Member

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    Yes, they are indeed “college” equipped. However, they do race with spinnaker and trapeze in the summer within the fleet.


    I have to ask about coaching, or trainers next.
     
  13. Ryan@470

    Ryan@470 Member

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    So, the coach wants us on boats as soon as the ice thaws :eek:. Do you have any suggestions for dry suits? Or proper equipment for cold (air water combination of 100 farenheight).
     
  14. Wavedancer

    Wavedancer Upside down? Staff Member

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    Ask your sailing buddies, but I highly recommend a dry suit. I use one myself for Laser frostbiting. Of course, I capsize a lot :(
    Certain dry suits should go on sale soon.
     
  15. Ryan@470

    Ryan@470 Member

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    Went sailing today for the first time in a few months... air water combined temperatures: 60 degrees Fahrenheit. Ordered myself a drysuit :D. I also noticed that my gloves and boots weren’t all that helpful in keeping warm in and water out... once my drysuit arrives, will normal rubber boots and winter gloves adequate?
     
  16. Wavedancer

    Wavedancer Upside down? Staff Member

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    That was cold alright! My limit is ~70F (water + air).
    With respect to boots, presumably the dry suit has either plain rubber or Goretex type boots attached. To protect those, you do want to have something else 'on top'. You will need to try what fits you best. I use Crocs!
    Gloves are always a problem, especially when they get wet. Again, you need to experiment as the conditions for frostbiting will vary.
     

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