470 Questions

Discussion in '470 Discussion' started by Ryan@470, Dec 6, 2017.

  1. Ryan@470

    Ryan@470 New Member

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    Here are some questions I have regarding my new boat. Feel free to answer or add your own.


    What are the different types of spinnaker bags? What are the mounting standards? Are there specific types for different sailing techniques? Never used one before, any input would be great.

    Why is 470 gear hard to find/expensive compared to other classes?

    Has anyone reinforced a 470 hull by laying glass from the inside? My boat has two “doors” (not to be mistaken for an inspection port) that can be opened to let the hull dry/make maintenance easier.

    Is it possible to role a 470 jib on a %110 furler or do I need a specific type of sail? (I probably won’t bother, just curious).

    Why don’t you see the 470 class out on the lake? I thought it was a pretty popular class, should have seen at least one at home...

    Why are 470 races hard to find? I would have to drive a bit to nearest... aren’t they an Olympic class?...

    What’s the easiest way to learn how to effectively trapeze?

    Can a crew of two ~230lbs (~100kg) be able to right a turtled 470? Crew of one?

    Can you sail solo, single trapeze, on a 470? While flying a spinnaker?

    When a 470 becomes suddenly over powered, and the skipper fails to luff the sail, would the crew on the line be brought over the hull and onto the mast/sail? Is there a safety release mechanism for this scenario? ... I can see how this can become very dangerous very quick.

    Why do you sail a 470?

    Thanks for any input!
     

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  2. LaLi

    LaLi Active Member

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    The bags differ only really whether they have one or two closing flaps at the top, and I believe they all have two these days. Affects the mounting a little but not much.
    Standard mounting would be direct screwing or through-bolting to the bulkhead at the front top corners, and holding the back top corners and the closing flap(s) up with elastic tied to the mast gate and fittings on the side deck. Those fittings may be ones used for other functions, such as trapeze elastic leads, or the chainplates.
    These are all the same question, really. Or at least there is one answer.

    Olympic status guarantees popularity on a global scale, but it doesn't necessarily lead to popularity on a local or national level. It does very easily lead to elitism, though, which directly leads to activity dropping off at the sub-international level. It's a slow process which is driven by the ease of running a class only for the top sailors. The 470 was chosen for the Olympics as a "people's boat", but what it's come to during the last 20+ years is that the class consists of Olympic hopefuls only. There are at best only a handful of those teams per country, and therefore very few even national-level regattas. I don't believe that the International 470 Association has ever made the conscious decision, but the class has effectively outsourced its grassroots to the 420 class, worldwide. You see now why there is so much class-specific equipment available for the other class but not the other?
    I have! I laminated some extra stringers on my boat when they were allowed at the time. It's not hard to do through the big hatches, but I wouldn't do anything like that to an old boat unless there is something actually broken and in need of repair.
    A furler has always been illegal in the 470, and it would be pretty useless as well. It's not used even in comparable classes which allow it. Adding one would probably throw the tuning off as well. And the jib has battens. Etc.
    Get a coach who knows the stuff. Find people in your area who are familiar with trapezeing (most likelly in the 420) and who can watch you sailing and tell you how not to do it. Anyone (such as myself) can give you the basics from a distance, but you need someone next to you to spot your mistakes, which you will be making a lot in the beginning.
    Then you can of course watch stuff like World Sailing TV videos on Youtube, but you have to keep in mind that even top crews do make systematical mistakes. (The hardest thing about learning from successful sailors is, are they successful because they do something in a certain way - or despite it?)
    Yes. But at or below 60 kg you'll have a tough time.
    This is one of the things that you can do, but isn't necessarily smart or even fun except as an occasional stunt. Don't try it while you're still learning the basics, with the spinnaker up, or in anything but light to medium winds.
    The mainsheet is the first safety valve, the jib sheet the next if it's really blowing. But what you described happens usually slowly enough in a 470 (no "slingshotting" as in cats or skiffs) that the crew has time to unhook... and step directly onto the centreboard.
    Once upon a time, I got into the 470 because it was the natural next step as a sailor, I had a good helmsman who was in the same situation, the class was active in this country on many levels, and there was a fairly good boat for sale at our club.

    I might still be/get again involved in the class if 1 ) I weighed at least 15 kg less and 2) there were others in my area who wanted to race the boat on a non-top international level. I don't expect either happening anytime soon... Which is kind of sad, because of all boats I've actively raced, the 470 has been the most satisfying overall. It requires an equal focus on boathandling/tactics/tuning, and while it's a little boring in light winds, it's the best in a breeze: it's fast, but reasonably easy to control.

    It's a great boat to learn in. I hope you'll have as much fun with it as I once did.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
  3. Bill Hanson

    Bill Hanson New Member Staff Member

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    There are active 470's that race in the Midwest on a non Olympic level.
    Regatta's are held at Des Plaines Il, Milwaukee, Wi and Carlyle, Il.
    They race weekly as a fleet in Des Plaines, Il (5 -10 active boats)
    Multiple other boats around the Midwest that race in Portsmouth handicap fleets.
    I suspect that that there are other 470's around the East coast that may also race in handicap fleets.
    Look at the smaller clubs that are on inland lakes, not the big name yacht clubs
    There are also 8? newer 470's located in Oyster Bay, NY that are related to the Oakcliff Sailing program.
    It might be worth your time to go see those boats and take pictures to see how newer boats are rigged.
     
  4. Ryan@470

    Ryan@470 New Member

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    Lila, earlier you mentioned bag mounting. I found an image of another 70s Morin 470 that has 6 hooks around the doors. Are these mounting for the bags, or used for something else?
     

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  5. LaLi

    LaLi Active Member

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    I would say both. The visible vertically-mounted hooks look like they are for the bags, and there's very likely another hook on each side for that, just out of sight under the mast gate.

    The horizontal hooks are probably for securing the spinnaker halyard and the sheets. Now the sheets don't really need to be secured like that, and the halyard hooks are too far inboard (the idea was apparently that the halyard is secured right where it comes out of the outboard edge of the bag). Over the years, people have rigged all kinds of ingenious automatically-releasing devices for this function, involving elastic, battens, and even toothbrushes :D but that's something you don't need to worry about at this point.

    In that picture, you can also see the hooks on the side tanks to which the aft outboard corner of the bag is attached (this can be tied to the trapeze elastic lead as well). There seem to be some sort of holes on the mast gate for the remaining corner.

    I've always considered the bags to be permanent fittings, so I think the hooks are an unnecessary complication. However, it's been about ten years since I last had something to do with fitting out these things, so I don't know what the current standard might be. In any case, there is nothing builder-specific about this - what works on a new Mackay works on an old Morin.
     
  6. Ryan@470

    Ryan@470 New Member

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    This may be repetitive, but could you point me in the right direction for a trap kit? The laser 2 you mentioned earlier includes one side, and they have only one in stock. I’ve tried looking for 420, laser 2, 470, And a few other dinghys with no luck. (Most were sold in Europe somewhere) ~ and I now know catamaran systems won’t work. Got any suggestions?

    Thanks (again).
     
  7. LaLi

    LaLi Active Member

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    Yes - do it like other 470 owners do, that is, buy the parts individually. If you're getting a harness from Fogh Marine, you might as well include these in the delivery:

    Trapeze Handle Standard Black Nylon
    D Shackle Slot Hd 4mm W 10 L 15 BL 1100 lb
    Clamcleat Racing Junior w Roller MK1
    Trapeze Hoist Nova R-4094
    (2 of each of the above)
    Marlow Excel Pro 4mm Rope (4 metres)
    Shock Cord 3/16 Rope (At least 2 m, more depending on how it's run in the cockpit. You will need this elsewhere in the boat, too.)

    Not included are hull fittings that you possibly need for the take-up elastic, if the originals aren't in place anymore.
     

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