First time sailor, looking for advice

I bought an old bombardier invitation sailboat for pretty cheap. Apparently the design is similar to the laser which is why I'm asking here.

The boat needs some work. I don't expect it to be high performance, just good enough to learn on for casual sailing.

I have some questions about the main problems with the boat:

1. The mast is bent at a roughly 15 degree angle just below the top of the mast step. The previous owner said it was done to make the boat faster but have some doubts about this. The main problem is that this makes the mast difficult to rotate because the bend is inside the mast step. As a solution we were thinking of is to insert a one inch wooden block inside the step to raise the bend just above the deck. How reasonable is this?

2. When we placed the boat on the dolly, we noticed that the left side is flexing slightly. It also seems heavier than the right. Does this mean that the foam on that side is waterlogged? Would drying it out help? I plan to cut 2 inspection ports to dry the hull out over the winter.

I hope someone can help out with these issues.

Welcome.
I'm not familiar with that boat but I did a quick search + quick look at some pics online. So here's some first thoughts based on your description -

Mast bent: based on your info + a couple pics online, honestly, this sounds like potentially a real problem. Not trying to sound scary, just my honest first impression. A picture of the bend would be very helpful. First, cold-bending an aluminum tube like a mast without kinking it, and in a long radius, is very difficult to do yourself, without tooling + etc. If there is a kink/fold in the aluminum at the bend, or even if the bend is smooth but has a short radius, that comprises / creates a great weakness in the mast, which I would guess would make it pretty likely to break at the bend under even modest force. Second, the idea of bending the mast 15* to make it faster sounds awfully far-fetched. Some boats do have "raked" masts but the ones I'm familiar with are in the range of 3-5*. And the bends are done in the factory with engineered tooling as part of the original manufacturing, most likely including heat treatment (annealing + hardening) after the bend is done. I can't help but wonder if the previous owner sailed or towed the boat under an obstacle, resulting in a bent mast. If it did go down like that, if it were me I would also take a VERY careful look at the mast step hole + surrounding / supporting structure, cuz that would also be very susceptible to damage in that scenario.

If the mast is indeed bent beyond useability, replacing it is pretty likely unavoidable. Maybe you can find a used one. A possible "kludge" repair would be to saw it down to remove the bend, and just sail with a shorter mast. Might or might not work, depending on dimensions, rigging, etc etc.

But all that said, a picture will help a whole lot for us to comment with less uncertainty about what you've got.

Hull soft / heavy: It's hard to speculate cuz I don't know how it's built inside. Opening it up with a couple inspection ports so you can see what's going on in there makes a ton of sense. If there's floation inside the hull that's absorbed water, that's usually hard to dry out. Another option that may be better is to remove it, which often requires cutting it into smaller chunks while it's still inside the hull so you can pull them thru the inspection port. Then old 2-liter soda bottles or 2-quart milk jugs make cheap+cheerful substitute floation. Another possibility is that the hull itself is constructed of a fiberglass-foam-fiberglass sandwich - the Laser deck is this. This material can absorb water thru small cracks in one or both of the fiberglass layers. If this is the case it's a lot harder to dry out or replace.

So hoping that helps, perhaps as nothing more than a starting point. If you can post a pic of the mast bend, and / or what you find inside the hull, I and others may be able to offer more thoughts having seen it.

Good luck with it + again welcome to the forum + to sailing.

Bent below the mast step to make the boat faster? Rrrriiigghhhttt. More likely it got bent when the mast got stuck in the mud during a capsize.

In regards to your first question, I see two problems. Besides keeping the mast from rotating, it will also wear against the mast tube in a strange manner. This may cause it to prematurely break. As for your idea of putting in a block, consider that the base of the mast tube is reinforced. Adding a block may raise the bottom of the mast above the reinforcement, again meaning a premature break in the mast tube.

As far as the hull flexing, this is normal for a fiberglass sailboats as they age. It can still be sailed, but it will not be competitive in racing. It may well be waterlogged, and installing ports may help dry it. Ports would not be a bad idea in any circumstance.

Here are some pictures of the mast. It looks like there was some work done to it. Maybe it was a repair that went wrong?

It's hard to tell for certain from the photo, but that sure looks like a couple of cracks in the mast in the first picture. Something went wrong for sure!

That mast is no good. You may be able to get a whole Laser mast and sail to fit in your hull, but it's probably not worth buying those things to use with a hull that doesn't sound too good either. Anything the seller told you is untrustworthy.

I agree with Rob that it looks like there are cracks in the mast from your pic. You'll be able to tell for sure - if so then that mast section is all done.

I also agree that it makes sense to be cautious before investing further, especially til you know more about the hull. It might be worth just cutting a hole in there to look before giving up on it. And I would also DEFINITELY inspect the mast hole very closely for cracks + any other indication of distress or compromise to the structure - and also where the mast tube attaches to the bottom of the hull, inside the hole- this will require cutting an inspection hole near the mast tube. Just from the location + shape of that bend in the mast, it does look like it bent while it was in the mast hole (whether in the mud in a capsize, a garage door, etc etc doesn't matter). The point is that all the force that bent the mast was quite likely transmitted thru the mast hole one way or another + that clearly suggests the possibility of damage to the mast hole as well as the mast.

If you get into the hull and what you see is alright, back to the mast- I know that's a 2-part mast like a Laser. But I have no way to guess whether a Laser lower section would fit with the top of the mast, rigging, + sail. If there's a lot of Lasers around near you, you might be able to try one, + if it works, maybe find somebody with an old one they'd let go of cheap. You can also get one new for $150+shipping from IntensitySails.com - Practice Spars For the Laser® Sailboat

Sorry you're in this situation. Hope it works out one way or another but holler if we can help further.

Could that be a Laser 4.7 lower section? I believe it is slightly angled, but not that much.

IIRC the Laser 4.7 bends around the level of the gooseneck + is longer radius, and the whole section is a good deal shorter ...

Thanks for the help, although it looks like bad news. Was really hoping to sail this thing.

Naws, have you determined that the hull is usable? That is, is the hull solid enough that it won't come apart and is the mast tube sound? Is the hull delaminated or water logged? Is the sail any good? I ask this to get some idea of whether the boat in general is worth spending any more money to make it whole.

If you think the hull and the rest is usable, you can carefully measure the length and inside and outside diameters of your lower mast section. Post those here and we can tell you if a Laser lower mast section will work with the rest of what you have. If so, you may be able to find a used lower Laser mast section. Are you near Windsor? If so, there is a place in Pinckney, MI that has lots of used Laser stuff, including spars. If you can get away with just buying a lower mast section, that's not too bad.

BTW, are those really cracks I see in the mast near the bend?

You could also do as cskudder suggested and cut off the damaged part of the mast, move the vang and gooseneck up higher, transfer the bottom cap to the new bottom of the mast and then figure out some way to put an extension at the top of the upper mast section that is the same length as the part you cut from the bottom. I'd feel better, though, about using a Laser lower mast if it will fit.

I hope you can salvage your purchase and make your boat seaworthy.

Rob Hair said:

If so, there is a place in Pinckney, MI that has lots of used Laser stuff, including spars. .

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Can I ask what the name of this business is that has Laser parts? We live in SW Ontario and go to Michigan often.

It's now called Midwest Sailing, associated with Portage Yacht Club, on Portage Lake. It has a long history which you may find interesting. The website is:

www.ms-pyc.com

Phone, 734-426-4155

I was there about three years ago and they had numerous trailers with lots of old sailboat parts in them and it seemed like plenty of Laser stuff. I think I bought a lower mast section.

Be sure to call before making the drive, as I'm not sure someone is always at their used parts area.

Did you find a suitable boat?

Rob Hair said:

It's now called Midwest Sailing, associated with Portage Yacht Club, on Portage Lake. It has a long history which you may find interesting. The website is:

www.ms-pyc.com

Phone, 734-426-4155

I was there about three years ago and they had numerous trailers with lots of old sailboat parts in them and it seemed like plenty of Laser stuff. I think I bought a lower mast section.

Be sure to call before making the drive, as I'm not sure someone is always at their used parts area.

Did you find a suitable boat?

Click to expand...

Ah, thanks! As for the boat - we go to view it on Thursday night. The seller is out of town until then. I *think* it's a great deal if it all turns out to be in good shape. It's a package deal - two Lasers. Both radial rigged. One is a practice boat - a 1985. The other is a race rigged boat which is a 1993. Both have practice sails but the 1993 also has a race sail. Comes with a dolly and a double trailer for both boats. Price - $3500.

If it all works out we plan to store the double trailer at the sailing school for our, and their use (so we don't have to store it in our garage). We plan to keep the 1993 for my son and sell the 1985.

Rob Hair said:

Naws, have you determined that the hull is usable? That is, is the hull solid enough that it won't come apart and is the mast tube sound? Is the hull delaminated or water logged? Is the sail any good? I ask this to get some idea of whether the boat in general is worth spending any more money to make it whole.

If you think the hull and the rest is usable, you can carefully measure the length and inside and outside diameters of your lower mast section. Post those here and we can tell you if a Laser lower mast section will work with the rest of what you have. If so, you may be able to find a used lower Laser mast section. Are you near Windsor? If so, there is a place in Pinckney, MI that has lots of used Laser stuff, including spars. If you can get away with just buying a lower mast section, that's not too bad.

BTW, are those really cracks I see in the mast near the bend?

You could also do as cskudder suggested and cut off the damaged part of the mast, move the vang and gooseneck up higher, transfer the bottom cap to the new bottom of the mast and then figure out some way to put an extension at the top of the upper mast section that is the same length as the part you cut from the bottom. I'd feel better, though, about using a Laser lower mast if it will fit.

I hope you can salvage your purchase and make your boat seaworthy.

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The hull is not in the best condition. It is very heavy, has some leaks and dings. But I think its still usable. This is just a boat to mess around with at the cottage.

I measured the mast, the length is 680 cm and diameter 51 cm.

I think cutting off the bent part might not be a bad idea. Would it be possible to use a shorter mast and trim the sail down to fit instead of making an extension?


I have another question about the hull of the boat. We tried to cut an inspection port at the front of the deck near the mast step. There is another layer of fiberglass about an inch under the top of the deck. I thought it would be hollow from looking at pictures of other boats. Is it ok to cut into it?

You could cut the lower part of the sail off, but I think it would actually be easier to extend the mast at the top. If you go this route you will need a heavy duty rivet tool for re-attaching the fittings on the mast. I guess this is the cheapest way to try to get the boat usable and I can understand that you don't want to invest more money in it, but I fear that this boat won't hold up for long.

I have no knowledge of the deck construction of your boat, but a Laser deck is of sandwich construction - two layers of fiberglass with a foam core. The foam is about 1/2" thick.

I think you have measured the whole mast not the lower section, however the Laser lower section is larger diameter than your 51cm. The Laser lower section is 286.5 cm. long.

<trim the sail down> ... I think the big challenge with this would be reinforcing the new corners enuf to carry the considerable forces on them, without them tearing out. I'm not saying that'd be impossible, but I'd imagine looking at the existing corners would give you some decent idea of what might be involved.

Hello all. I'm trying a hail Mary reply to a rather old string, I realize. I guess I can post it elsewhere if needed. It just happens that Naws posted a question in 2016 that came up in my google search for some of the same info.

My 13 year old boy sails Lasers and 420s at a nearby yacht club. He's had several years of day camp training and is becoming quite a sailor. We bought a couple of CL 16s over the last few years to learn to sail together, as they popped up for very reasonable prices, literally next door. (My older son is taking over one of them). We are loving the sailing so much that the power boat sits on the trailer a lot these days!

The 13 year old was recently given a Bombardier Invitation, about 16 feet long, in pretty good shape. We had a a couple of little tears fixed in the sail, rigged it according to the manual online, and it's pretty well ready to go. One caveat. The thing must weigh close to 300 lbs, vs the 181 in the specs I've seen. I can't imagine it will sail very well or even float properly. We assumed it was water that would drain out when we removed the plug, but that has not helped much.

I am very keen to hear if Naws ever went ahead and opened up the hull to figure out what's in there and how to dry it out or remove it. Any clues would be most helpful.

Tim

chubb channel cruiser said:

Hello all. I'm trying a hail Mary reply to a rather old string, I realize. I guess I can post it elsewhere if needed. It just happens that Naws posted a question in 2016 that came up in my google search for some of the same info.

My 13 year old boy sails Lasers and 420s at a nearby yacht club. He's had several years of day camp training and is becoming quite a sailor. We bought a couple of CL 16s over the last few years to learn to sail together, as they popped up for very reasonable prices, literally next door. (My older son is taking over one of them). We are loving the sailing so much that the power boat sits on the trailer a lot these days!

The 13 year old was recently given a Bombardier Invitation, about 16 feet long, in pretty good shape. We had a a couple of little tears fixed in the sail, rigged it according to the manual online, and it's pretty well ready to go. One caveat. The thing must weigh close to 300 lbs, vs the 181 in the specs I've seen. I can't imagine it will sail very well or even float properly. We assumed it was water that would drain out when we removed the plug, but that has not helped much.

I am very keen to hear if Naws ever went ahead and opened up the hull to figure out what's in there and how to dry it out or remove it. Any clues would be most helpful.

Tim

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This is probably not the main issue, but when I got my laser it felt pretty heavy and it was revealed that there were 20 year old waterlogged hiking pants and a pair of gloves in there. If the boat has a hatch there could be some equipment being stored in it that you definitely would want to remove.

tuppence170 said:

This is probably not the main issue, but when I got my laser it felt pretty heavy and it was revealed that there were 20 year old waterlogged hiking pants and a pair of gloves in there. If the boat has a hatch there could be some equipment being stored in it that you definitely would want to remove.

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Well thanks, I will check for a hatch or access of some sort.